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no reply...... cos im only half way through reading it,  not a big reader me. lol 
ill read it properly when i get back from my Birthday weekend away 

Ian.

Cool man, Thanks for atleast reading a bit of it

I think that the article was very informative Simon.  You covered all the aspects of what this topic was about.  It shows just how much different IE is from the other browsers.  Maybe one day, IE will upgrade to a new engine, but until then..... We have a few nice alternatives.  IE... Firefox. 

IE will be upgraded... IE 7 will most likely be into the competition up with the top browsers once again (compatibility wise, not user wise, since it already is on top there). The only downside is that IE 7 won't be released for a LONG time. By the next release of windows to be exact. And just for the pleasure of it, it will just be able for that version of windows. So basically to get IE 7 once it hits the market the only option is to cough up the dough so to speak.

Thanks a lot for the feedback tough.

http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/complexspiral/demo.html How pretty isn't that!? That is if you use a modern browser. If you use an outdated browser that doesn't even fully support Css1 *cough MSIE cough* (yet Css3 is on the drawing board) then it wont be all that pretty I can tell... hehe

Well I dunno whats up with my firefox, but it keeps coming up with something saying "Error launching browser window: no XBL binding for browser" which really sucks. and I have tried reinstalling it with no luck

Do you have the latest version? (0.9)  If not, uninstall the version you're using now and download the latest version, maybe that will help...

<me hints>0.9.3 is the latest release </me hints>

If nothing helps then please contribute and inform Mozilla about it so they can fix it and most likely help you with what to do.

You may also want to try and start firefox in "safe-mode". If you have the original install paths then it should be accessed through; Start > Programs > Mozilla Firefox > Mozilla Firefox (Safe Mode).

If you have installed any plug-ins lately that might be why and then you open firefox in safe mode and remove it. As simple as that.

ok then, yea I did install a plugin, but I have already gone thru and deleted and still no luck.

What exactly is the difference between safe mode and normal? because when i open safe mode sometimes i can open the normal one after.

Firefox 1.0 PR RC
What's new in 1.0 Release?
New features

* 250231 - Find toolbar.
* 244078 - Live Bookmarks (RSS feed integration)*.
* New keyboard shortcuts
o 213377 - Pressing Esc now stops image animations.
o 246719 - Link modifiers now work in many places in the browser UI. For example, Ctrl+clicking the Home button opens your home page in a new tab.
o 208035 - [Linux] Pressing Backspace key now goes back.
* 225944, 247960 - Add folder pane to Bookmark Manager (screenshot)*.
* 211023 - "Sort by name" on context menus for bookmarks folders.
* 239241 - Add password manager mode to display saved passwords.
* 218694 - Implement master password UI.
* 217664 - Ability to use same proxy for all protocols.
* 166395 - Need ability to override navigator.appName and navigator.appVersion from prefs.js.
* 173569 - Clicking in focused textbox should open autocomplete results.

* Neil Turner: More on new Firefox features describes these new features in more depth.
Major improvements

* 174265, 173762, 228862 - Favicons for bookmarks often wrong and forgotten after shutdown.
* Firefox update and Extension update improvements
o Firefox now checks for updates every 24 hours. (Firefox still only checks for extension updates every 7 days.)
o 251473 - Allow extension authors to remotely bump maxVersion for a given extension version to prevent users from having to redownload an identical new version when they upgrade Firefox where the only change is a newer maxVersion.
* Pop-up blocking improvements
o 176564 - Can now open blocked popups.
o Yellow information bar for blocked pop-ups in addition to status bar icon*. This information bar can be disabled.
* Security improvements
o 241705 - If a site not in your whitelist attempts to install software, a yellow information bar now appears instead of a dialog*. This prevents malicious sites from repeatedly popping up a software installation dialog until you accept. The initial whitelist contains only update.mozilla.org.
o 22183 - Make the address bar visible in all pop-up windows to prevent spoofing. (See also 252811.)
o 245406 - Display domain in status bar for secure sites.
o 244025 - For secure sites, show lock icon in address bar (in addition to showing it in the status bar) and make address bar yellow*.
o 157354 - Hide user:pass in the address bar. (Usernames and passwords in URLs come before the hostname, which is confusing and has been used in widespread phishing/spoofing attacks.)
* Alternate stylesheet support improvements
o The status bar icon now only appears when the page actually has alternate stylesheets.
o 216424 - You can now select alternate stylesheets using the keyboard (View > Page Style).
o 253332 - The Page Style menu (but not the status bar menu) has a "No Style" option that removes all styles, including ones from style attributes and other HTML attributes.
* 253046 - New missing plugin finder (screenshots).
* The "Web Features" options panel has been reorganized.
* 232089 - The "Add bookmarks" dialog should not default to the last folder you added a bookmark to.
* 242586 - Add Amazon, Dictionary.com, eBay, and Yahoo to the search bar (in addition to Google). You can still add engines from Mycroft.
* 237727 - When installing on top of an existing Firefox installation, the installer now deletes old files program files without nuking the entire directory from orbit.
* 177996 - [Linux] Better Start Script for Firefox - When invoking Firefox with an instance already running, pass a URL to the running instance (if one was given) or tell the running instance to open a new window.
* 257405 - [Linux] Use GTK2 native keybindings for input and textarea. This means Firefox no longer uses Emacs keybindings in text fields unless you set an pref in GTK2.

New web developer features

* 248549 - In quirks mode, add undetected document.all support.
* 256932 - In quirks mode, expose elements by their name/id in the global scope.
* 28998 - Proxy: Web Proxy Auto-Discovery Protocol (WPAD).
* 250666 - Implement the npruntime plugin scriptability API.
* 237586 - SPNEGO+NTLM support (implement negotiateauth using SSPI for Windows).
* 231529 - Optionally enable unprompted NTLM authentication.

Major bug fixes

* 229100 - Shift+Tab is broken in the search bar.
* 232770 - Ctrl+Tab to switch tabs should work even when the address bar has focus.
* 246078 - URLs from other apps result in two Firefox windows or a window and an error dialog.
* 101190 - Firefox incorrectly blocks requested popups while the page is loading.
* 231393 - Tab URL does not persist on bad links if tabs switched.
* 213186 - Change "Cookies are delicious delicacies." to something more informative.
* 217120 - Back button does not restore scroll position on eBay.
* 201040 - Unable to view page source of the page that uses IDN.
* 125276 - Printing causes squished images on second page; replicates images on first page.
* 192577 - [Windows] URL bar drop-down does not collapse on second click on down-arrow.
* 248423 - [Windows] Make config.trim_on_minimize work again.
* 229062 - [Windows] Clicking link in Download Notification does not show Download Manager.
* 228977 - [Windows] Firefox gets wrong desktop folder for downloading.
* 239358 - [Linux] Reverse DNS lookups are degrading performance on Fedora Core 2.

Security hole fixes

* Details will appear on mozilla.org's Known Vulnerabilities in Mozilla page
Grab it here>>>
http://ftp35.newaol.com/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/0.10rc/Firefox%20Setup%201.0PRrc.exe

Nice writeup.

PNG transparencies and obscure style sheet options are nice things for Firefox to support.  I'm sure if doing those things actually becomes popular that IE will support them also.

For now I  can't give up my Google toolbar.

Bruce

What are you talking about? Css is what everyone into design use now days. I don't talk about the general person drawing some stuff in Photoshop and then exporting it with the slice tool to make some sucky tables. I talk about people loving web design, not for the money because for most of us that isn't much. I talk about pure love for it, just as we all blindly love mx.

I'll list some sites that use Css and nothing but Css to design the site (perhaps a tiny bit of flash on some), the html only stands for one single thing, content!

http://mozilla.org/ <- duh!
http://www.w3.org/ <- duh again!
http://mezzoblue.com/
http://alistapart.com/
http://cssvault.com/gallery.php <- that is a list on its own, click on a date and check out all sites on each date, all of them use nothing but Css for the design.
http://stopdesign.com/
http://nundroo.com/
http://justwatchthesky.com/
http://ibeginwithanidea.com/
http://csszengarden.com/ <- that is also a list of inspirational Css designs witch I explained in my big ass post.
http://kevinleitch.co.uk/
http://alazanto.org/
http://buyecco.com/

This above is only a personal list of favourite sites I go to OR favourite designs. Take that and multiply it with about 20000. That is how popular Css is for us... the web folks (yes it may sound stuck up but I include myself as one of them nerds). Practically every single website that is well made these days (and stretching back a year ago or even longer if you wish) is designed with Css, NOT table hacks!

It is generally a question about what corner or spot of the web you move around in tough. For example. Most people here go to sites like, mcmfactory for example. The coding of that site is aged and outdated since long time. That is nothing unique to that site tough. I still have to see a mcm2 site that is well coded. I know at least one that is made with Cuss for the design but the code is not semantics and don't make it full justice but I have to say that I'm happy to see that at least one made the move in this community and went into the now, away from the past of nested tables.

If you are a very general surfer who don't just surf around on game fan sites and such then you would be surprised about how many that use Cuss for the design, sure not everyone is hardcore and do it all the way but at least for a big piece of the site they use Cuss.

I'm not doing this for my blind love for Mozilla or my blind hate for IE. I'm doing this to make my own life easier, because it works against me and 100000 other modern web coders out there. IE makes everything that should be so easy, so hard. Unless it makes something impossible then it makes it incredibly hard even for someone who should know.

Finally I have to say: If someone out there has a modem or at least anything but cable or higher, a connection where you actually wait for the html to load and not only the images. You could spend 50% less time on the computer waiting for a website/page to load and spend that on the track or somewhere else instead. That is if everyone would code things the way it should be. The major thing holding it back tough, is IE. People think that just because of IE's stupid way to handle most Css attributes then it isn't worth it but they totally misunderstands the point of Css then.

The point of Css is to split the design and content up, you shall only have to load a design once for a website, and then all you shall have to do is reload the content.

Quote from: AMA_DirtTwister on September 12, 2004, 06:37:38 PM
I'm sure if doing those things actually becomes popular that IE will support them also.

IE will support it all fully with IE7, they have promised that. The only cache is that you have to wait for and then buy the upcoming release of windows and that will take some time.

I'm not saying that you're looking away from facts, I know you aren't that kind of person. But Microsoft does NOT care about support for web standards or anything like it. All they care about is having the most users on their browser. They will not support Css in IE7 because they think that is good and that people will be happy with that. They do it because more and more sites use to advanced Css for IE to handle and people will soon realise that IE isn't the best choice of a browser and leave for other alternatives. That is the only and will also remain as the only reason.

Do you believe me if I say that IE would NOT have the kind of status it has today if it wasn't pre-installed with windows? Apples computers that use OS X (Panther) comes with a browser named Safari if I'm correct. That is a browser up to pair with Mozilla and Opera 7.x. There is a MSIE available for Mac too but why do you think people doesn't use that as much as Safari. If IE is so good then why don't people run of and install MSIE the first thing they do?
Give it a thought at least.

Quote from: AMA_DirtTwister on September 12, 2004, 06:37:38 PM
For now I  can't give up my Google toolbar.

What are the futures you want? If they aren't included in Firefox by default I can promise you that there is a plug-in (takes some seconds to install) that gives you that future.


By the way, did you read through all of my larger post?

Quote from: MotoX395 on September 12, 2004, 04:07:50 PM<me hints>0.9.3 is the latest release </me hints>

Quote from: motoman on September 12, 2004, 06:02:08 PMFirefox 1.0 PR RC

Public releases is what someone who already has problems should stick to

Although I did not think they where going to nod out that one just yet. I got to look into that I guess.

All you have to do is use the Google toolbar for about 30 seconds and you'll see the features that I want.  When I search using the google toolbar each word that I search on becomes a button on the toolbar that I can now use to skip through the page.  Each word can be highlighted using a different color. These features work even when you are way beyond the initial page that was the search result that got you there.  I can display information about that page including what pages link to it and the cached snapshot of the page that I'm looking at.  Fields that are elibigle to be autofilled will be highlighted and by clicking on Autofill they will be filled.  I can then restrict that search to the specific site of the page that I'm looking at.  It also blocks pop-ups but that isn't as important as it used to be.

I wasn't saying anything against CSS.  I was just pointing out that IE would be made to support the more obscure aspects of it, if they were to become more popular.  CSS does work in IE and is heavily used by many.

Bruce

http://update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=33 Google toolbar for Mozilla Firefox. I installed and tested it and it works superb even tough it is nothing that I will use myself in the future. At least I don't think so.

If you won't give Firefox a try after this then I assume the problem isn't functionality, more like a person who don't want to switch. That is nothing wrong. Many people feel like that, I used to do so too actually until I was forced to start using it for web site testing, then I was stuck.

I use Opera, and i like it a lot. My wife tried it and 'can't get used to it' even though it has gestures (the first browser to adopt them i think) a killer browsing aid whenever i am forced back to another browser i find i'm wiggling the cursor wildly and nothing is happening. I think my wife is a typical IE user, mostly unaware of security problems IE might have but it's there on her desktop and what she's used to because it came installed with windows - isn't that what that big DOJ court case was about, MS trying to dominate the web by setting (not following) standards to give it a commercial edge because it pre-installed IE?

I use the free version of Opera and all of the toolbars are customizable so as to make the ad bar small enough not to be a problem for me, i really need to get a license. It seems to have all the features listed for firefox even though i was not aware of a lot of them, i still must have used them from time to time. The thing that really bugs me is when sites are coded for IE only, or in the case of Macromedias site where it actually tests for Opera and won't let you in unless you use IE or Netscape ... huh?? Most times i can still use it just have to read between the lines - often literally.

Finally isn't the point of standards that everyone follows all of them and not to just implement the ones that you want to or seem popular at any one point in time? Otherwise only the popular ones will get used since they are the only ones available and therefore none of the other features will ever become popular - seems to be a bit of circular logic there.


Laurie

I have FireFox, Netscape, and Opera installed on my Desktop (I use Multi-IE on my Pocket PC).

The toolbar is a good start.  It works a little differently and I don't see an autofill option as a button on the toolbar.  It will be nice to have it under Linux.

The main reason I haven't switched is that I haven't seen any reason to. 

You say you don't think you would use the Google Toolbar.  If you search Google and you try the toolbar for a few days, I don't think you will stop using it.

Bruce

Opera is a superb browser at the new releases (7.x) but I'm too annoyed by the banner even tough it's possible to make it blend in good. I'm also not all that keen on the overall layout of it. Else a browser I recommend.

I have Firefox, IE and Opera. As stated before I just use the second and the last one to look at sites in for testing. Firefox is my browsing browser.

If (I'll pick the rough parts here):

• Standards compatibility
• Security
• Modern futures (But that doesn't say that it don't work with sites that is badly coded. Most of the time it does.)
• PNG Support
• Css 1, Css 2 and some Css3 support
• Faster (If tuned correctly)
• Great library of skins and Extensions that is installed in a second pretty much
  all futures included or available for Firefox is what any browser today have or can have (actually even more)
• Larger browsing window
• Tabbed browsing (an idea that have been seen in many browsers and browser add-ons now days but I can ensure you that they where not the first one *cough myie2*)
• Built in pop-up blocker (I've been using Mozilla browsers for more then a year and never had a single pop up with it).
• Better bookmark futures
• Updated often for new awesome futures and security fixes (even tough non have been exploited yet, witch only is positive)

isn't enough for you then I don't think you'll ever move on from IE.

I have to add since I was checking something out that Laurie asked in a different thread, I've actually been reading and posting to this thread from IE 6, Netscape 7.2, Firefox .9, and now Multi-IE 3.0 (Pocket PC).

Bruce

I'll run through the list with my comments:

• Standards compatibility - IE is compatible enough for me and this is something that will constantly improve (MS will keep setting trends and standards for many years to come.)
• Security - I consider IE very secure with flexible features that can burn you if you have options set inappropriately  I like how Windows update works and I like the option of installing things like Flash very cleanly without the download, navigate to the file, install scenerio that FireFox likes you to do
• Modern futures (But that doesn't say that it don't work with sites that is badly coded. Most of the time it does.) - I'm assuming you mean features. - IE supports all kinds of new/modern features and it will be constantly upgraded.
• PNG Support - IE supports PNG files.  Does it support them to your liking? No.  To mine? Yes
• Css 1, Css 2 and some Css3 support - So far IE supports all the CSS features that I have used and the vendors that provide the products that my company uses.
• Faster (If tuned correctly) - Haven't seen any of them faster yet.  Some have the appearance of being slightly faster by rendering in a different order.  I would venture a guess that most people that have a problem with the speed of IE have addons installed that slow it down or have a fundamental problem with their workstation configuration.
• Great library of skins and Extensions that is installed in a second pretty much - I have no interest in skins for my browser
• all futures included or available for Firefox is what any browser today have or can have (actually even more) - Does Windows Update work with it?
• Larger browsing window - Than what?  It's larger than Full Screen?
• Tabbed browsing (an idea that have been seen in many browsers and browser add-ons now days but I can ensure you that they where not the first one *cough myie2*) - Not much of interest to me.  I accomplish a similar thing with stacked icons on my taskbar.  If I close a window I know I'm not closing a bunch of other pages that I'm looking at.
• Built in pop-up blocker (I've been using Mozilla browsers for more then a year and never had a single pop up with it). - I use Google toolbar and with XP SP2 I'm not sure it even matters any more.
• Better bookmark futures - Like what?
• Updated often for new awesome futures and security fixes (even tough non have been exploited yet, witch only is positive) - Like any good program should.  IE is actually updated more often than I would like.

Bruce

You've made clear enough that nothing will make you change away from IE and I respect that (in a way of respecting people's rights to choice).

I will one last time answer tough... hopefully the last time at least:

1. MS do NOT set the standards. It has some kind of standard on its own, below standards for others but I guess IE standards will do for you.
2. I don't care for windows update out of reasons I don't need to take in this thread. If that now is such a pain I can tell you that it is only the flash plug-in that you need to do this with. Anything else you install will be the way I assume you like.
3. Yes, sorry I wrote that wrong. IE DO support PNG images but not alpha transparency witch is the whole point of it pretty much. EVERY other browser that is updated since 2001 does. Don't you think that is a tad silly?
4. But it does not do that for me and for the rest of the world that know that Css is for more then coloring text and giving some padding and margin here and there.
5. Yes Firefox do render pages in another order. But Firefox have been proven by tests to load pages faster then MSIE in tuned condition. In stock condition (not touching the about:config file and such) it is a tie tough. And the test computers did NOT have any add-ons or such installed either.
6. But since you like google toolbar so much then you have to like extensions. It's all about the futures.
7. What do you need windows update for? Do you need it for mcm2?
8. No, Larger then other browsers (once again when none of them have been modified with).
9. First of that's just a waste of space down there and secondly Firefox warns you if your about to close a window with multiple tabs in it.
10. Perhaps not, but seriously. You install service packs and toolbars instead of just using a better browser?
11. Like having your absolute favourite bookmarks in a row in the toolbar as in the pic I've attached in the bottom of this post.
12. IE has so many flaws to fill up that twice as many updates wouldn't be enough.

Bookmark toolbar

Simon

I must admit at first I was optimistic with Firefox, but now that I've had a chance to use it for awhile. I can honestly say its one of the best browsers out there. I've found some excellent extensions that gives it that extra functionality. I currently have Firefox, Opera, Netscape and IE on my system. Purely for testing purposes, as you could say I'm one of those nerds MotoX395 was referring too. Yeah I've taken my love for web design and learnt css and have implemented it into my design.
Which you can see at the following address. http://www3.telus.net/public/dsteel/ You shouldn't have any problems viewing it in any of the browsers I've listed even IE. But you will notice some subtle differences.

I've found once you get your site laid out its much easier to update and even redesign. If you notice just below the menu you'll see (no css | 1 | 2). This is a style switcher that I've added to my site. No css will turn everything black and white for printing purposes. Where as the others are different styles of the same design. But you can choose to do totally different design for each style. Such as Snecx.com http://www.snecx.com/core.php?sect=home, so as you can see using css has its benefits. So having browser that support it and do it correctly is key. Cause having to design a web site for multiple browser that interprete things differently every time you design a site can cost you time and money. So I guess I just wanted point out the possibilities of using css and having browsers that support it correctly.(Standards)

Oh and I can use css too lol. 

Here is a list of extensions I've found useful.

Bug Me Not
Google Tool Bar
Gmail Compose (if you have an account hehe)
Flash Got (if you use flashget)
SpellBound (Like IE Spell but for Firefox)
IE View

Also another one that adds the page rank to the google tool bar.

You can find all the extensions I use at the following address if anyone is interested.
http://texturizer.net/firefox/extensions/

Just my thoughts on the discussion.

Denny